Chocolate Forum
Chat => General => Topic started by: wjp666 on January 05, 2011, 07:42:06 am
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...Gerry Rafferty.
he was one amazingly talented guy who should be remembered for far more than just 'baker street'. he was my michael jackson. without you, mr. blonde just might have sliced off that cops ear to something by Abba.
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Yes indeed. Was intrigued to see a photo of a saxophone next to this news on our local newspaper website. As we all know, he didn't play the saxophone on Baker Street! (Wasn't it Bob Holness?).
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Pete Postlewhaite has died aswell http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12106753 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12106753)
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yes indeed, Keyser Soze's henchman will be missed too.
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A lot of good people have gone lately.
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leslie nielson being a personal fave.
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Ronnie James Dio being one I will always miss.
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omg! i had no idea he'd died!
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Did you know he had cancer?
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god, i didn't even know that. he looked okay in that Tencaious-D movie a couple of years ago.
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Well, he indeed had cancer and unfortunately he lost the battle. One of the greatest voices in rock, he was.
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yes, i'd agree with that.
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Tenacious D Dio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w80Wsx4MFg&feature=fvst#normal)
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I Recently watched the Heaven and Hell DVD, a truly awesome final performance. R.I.P. Ronnie
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I haven't got that. I listened to the final album though. That man had so much more to give.
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We watched a Lemmy DVD yesterday.
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from rafferty to motorhead... how did this happen?
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We watched a Lemmy DVD yesterday.
Was that the Lemmy documentary? I've yet to see that. It's supposed to be brilliant, as long as you're into Motörhead.
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Yes - it was on a DVD Eddie bought. It was quite interesting I suppose. He seems to be a nice guy. I'm not into Motorhead. It's far too grungy and screechy for me. I like my rock to be a bit bluesy and a bit edgy. I like some of Led Zepplin - The Stones - The Clash - that sort of thing - and a lot else besides.
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I have vivid memories of frequently being right next to the speaker in a rock club in the 70s when 'Overkill' blasted out - I'm surprised I didn't suffer severe loss of hearing!
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I've been to so many loud gigs I've lost count. Six of these were Motörhead. I can still hear everything.
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being a hardcore rock/metal fan myself, the last concert i went to was, erm... gerry and the pacemakers. (which featured the original gerry but none of the original pacemakers.) ROCK ON!
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Their Pacemakers probably stopped working!
Well, I thought it was clever...
I saw Hazel O'Connor t'other day.
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being a hardcore rock/metal fan myself, the last concert i went to was, erm... gerry and the pacemakers. (which featured the original gerry but none of the original pacemakers.) ROCK ON!
I saw them live at a free council in our town park a few years ago. They were brilliant! Gerry can still sing really well.
The most recent 'well-known' artist I've seen is Jeff Beck at the Royal Albert Hall last year. At the end he invited a 'guest' on to the stage - David Gilmor! Awesome.
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yes, gerry's voice is still with us. i even got him to sign some merchandise.
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Their Pacemakers probably stopped working!
Well, I thought it was clever...
I saw Hazel O'Connor t'other day.
Ooh, I bet that was good. I did 'Eighth Day' on karaoke the other night.
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She did the entire Breaking Glass album in commemeration of the film, plus D-Days and some other stuff that wasn't so interesting! The only thing I missed was the synths, but there you go. She's definitely still got it!
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and now liz taylor's gone. RIP, liz... i'll always remember you as the voice of maggie from The Simpsons.
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We're losing quite a lot of people at the moment.
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it's like a couple of years ago when all the celebrities decided to drop off one by one. i hope this isn't another morbid year like that was.
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and now look what's happened to poor jason donovan! what's going on in the world? this is so sad, and shocking. jason, you will be sadly missed.
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Is that your attempt at an April Fool? Try harder next time! :P
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would i try something so crass?
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*thinks*
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that's a long thought.
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Eddie sorbat is now gone!
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Did he make luxury ice desserts?
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Don't know. Never heard of him. Was he a rock star?
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oh - eddie STOBART! took me a while, but i got it in the end.
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Did he crash in his truck? :D
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Sidney Lumet, he just died...
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loooooove 'dog day afternoon'. but at 86 i guess he has a good run.
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Elisabeth Sladen dies
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She was my favourite Doctor Who assistant. I also used to watch The Sarah Jane Adventures as well. I'm gutted. She was only 63!
RIP!
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she loooked stunning for 63. RIP.
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loooooove 'dog day afternoon'. but at 86 i guess he has a good run.
Who - the dog?
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lol... very good.
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Really was she 63. It is very sad.
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and now Osama has left us. poor guy.
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and now Osama has left us. poor guy.
I very much hope he does NOT rest in peace.
i would like to pay tribute to Henry Cooper though - a true gentleman and a real sportsman.
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oh yes, poor henry. will be missed.
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But what about Osama? He was a decent bloke really, deep down.
NOT!
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who lives in a cardboard box under the sea...?
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I thought they set him on fire and then released his body to the sea?
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and now another Cooper's gone, Jackie this time.
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add seve ballesteros to the list.
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John Walker - one of the so-named-but-not-related Walker Brothers has died. They were at the height of fame in the 1960s with hits such as 'The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore' but remained popular to this day. My sister had the hots for Scot Walker way back ion the 60s.
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I wasn't even alive until 1969!
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The Walker Brothers - The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine "Anymore" (1966) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiiCYwy3CaM&feature=related#normal)
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and now Randy Savage has left us following a heart attack AND a car crash.
here's my fave Randy moment:
Oh, the Snake Bites (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2lXA5K4mTE#normal)
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RIP jeff conaway.
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Christ, only 60! I used to like him in Babylon 5. RIP, mate.
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ah, B5 - those were the days. i was a big fan of Taxi as well.
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What about Party of five/
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never watched that.
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I remember him in the film Grease. Back then I thought he was he was really cute.
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add one of my faves Ryan Dunn to the list. (this list is getting rather long now.) looks like he went the same way as Randy Savage.
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Great choice of thread to sell your stuff on mate.
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You're talking to a machine!
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Just one more thing... RIP Columbo.
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(i think it's gonna be RIP chocolate forum at this rate.)
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I've got that feeling too.
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Nooooooooo! :( :( :(
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noooooooo indeed!
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RIP officer Moses Hightower. :-(
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and now Cha Cha from grease is gone. :-(
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Robert Robinson, the veteran BBC broadcaster and presenter of quizzes such as Call My Bluff and Brain of Britain, has died at the age of 83.
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Robert Robinson, the veteran BBC broadcaster and presenter of quizzes such as Call My Bluff and Brain of Britain, has died at the age of 83.
This question is for the youngest children only:
"What did he die of?"
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yatching accident?
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John Egging, Red Arrows pilot.
I was there at the incredible display. Such a sad end to the day.
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yes, i just heard. how awful. am i right in thinking it's their first ever fatal accident?
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John Egging, Red Arrows pilot.
I was there at the incredible display. Such a sad end to the day.
That's awful GC. I heard about it on the radio.
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i only saw them perform on wednesday. this feels so odd and sad.
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yes, i just heard. how awful. am i right in thinking it's their first ever fatal accident?
I heard that there was one back in the 1970s but I haven't checked.
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oh, i'll have to look into that.
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okay, so according to wiki there have been more than 2...
1969 – Two Gnats crashed, one striking trees at Kemble during practice with one fatality and the second crashing short of the RAF Fairford runway.[citation needed]
20 January 1971 – Two Gnats collided during the cross-over manoeuvre with four fatalities.[18]
17 May 1980 – A Hawk hit a yacht mast at an air show in Sussex, the pilot ejected safely.[18]
1986 – A Hawk rammed into the back of another on a runway.
1987 – A Hawk crashed into a house in the neighbouring village of Welton, Lincolnshire while practising, nobody was killed and both pilots ejected safely.[19]
24 June 1988 –A Hawk crashed whilst attempting to take off, and the fuel tanks exploded. The pilot ejected safely.[20]
1988 – Flt Lt Neil MacLachlan died practising a "roll back" during practice at RAF Scampton. [21]
17 October 1998 – Flt Lt R. Edwards landed short on the runway after a practise run at the Red Arrows then home base, RAF Cranwell, and safely ejected at low altitude.[22]
9 September 2003 – A Hawk overshot the runway during landing at Jersey Airport while arriving in advance of the Jersey International Air Display. The pilot, Flt Lt Jez Griggs, ran the jet into a gravel pile and little damage was caused. Nobody was harmed. Displays were not affected because the Red Arrows take a spare aircraft with them.[23]
2007 – The wingtip of a Hawk hit the tail of another during practice flight near RAF Scampton.[24]
23 March 2010 – Two Hawks were involved in a mid air collision. The synchro pair were practising one of their manoeuvres when the two aircraft collided. Red 7, Flt Lt David Montenegro managed to land his plane safely, but the other (Red 6, Flt Lt Mike Ling) was forced to eject and was taken to hospital with a dislocated shoulder. The incident took place during pre-season training at Hellenic Air Force base, Kasteli, in Crete.[25]
20 August 2011 – A Hawk crashed near Bournemouth Airport following a display at the Bournemouth Air Festival. Flight Lieutenant Jon Egging, pilot of Red 4, was killed in the accident.[26] After the show, as they were returning to Bournemouth Airport to land, he lost height after the split of the formation.
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Thanks for that. Four fatalities in 1971 then - shocking.
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scary stuff! i had no idea they had had that many incidents, let alone deaths.
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David Croft has died at the age of 89 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15072847 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15072847)
1968–1977 Dad's Army
1974–1981 It Ain't Half Hot Mum
1972–1985 Are You Being Served? (Series 1–8)
1977–1978 Come Back Mrs Noah
1980 Oh Happy Band!
1980–1988 Hi-de-Hi!
1982–1992 'Allo 'Allo! (Series 1–6)
1980–1988 Hi-de-Hi!
1988–1993 You Rang, M'Lord?
1992–1993 Grace and Favour
1995–1997 Oh, Doctor Beeching!
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i'm not going to say i was a fan or anything, but that's quite an impressive list.
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RIP steve jobs, may your legacy continue in the young minds you've inspired.
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I never like apple, I never brought any of there products, I still think he over charged. BUT he did help kick start a major improvement of tech to the masses.
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i'm a PC. but you gotta appreciate what this guy did.
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RIP my mullet.
You served me well, loyal friend. but when I couldn't get a comb through you today I realised it was time to end our relationship. I feel bad that I left you on the cold, hard floor of Hardye Barbers in Dorchester with all the other unwanted strands, but I'm afraid it had to be done. We have known each other since school and I will miss you deeply. I shall now try to embark on my life mullet-free and (almost) of employable appearance. Adios.
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Betty Driver http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15320895
No more HOT POT!
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i had no idea she was that old.
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I know - such sad news.
Rest In Peace Dan Whealdon. I was watching the Indycar when it happened. Makes you feel sick
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just heard about this. just awful.
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I know she was 91 so it was hardly unexpected, but I felt so sad when I heard about Betty Driver. She had an amazing life, and was still incredibly sharp despite her age. A nearly 80-year career in showbiz is incredible.
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She was incredible for her age. She will be so much missed.
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I wonder how they plan to write her out of corrie .
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I wonder how they plan to write her out of corrie .
I suppose it will be like when the actress who played Blanche died - they'll send her away somewhere and she'll slip away quietly in her sleep. Perhaps she'' visit 'her Gordon' and die there?
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I am sure whatever they do it will be fitting.
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i had no idea she was even that old.
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The Great Dennis Ritchie dies 10 days ago!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie)
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oh no! he died on my daughters 2nd birthday!
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Edmundo Ros, died at age 100! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15414606 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15414606)
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that's a good old age.
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he also gone! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_bin_Abdul-Aziz_Al_Saud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_bin_Abdul-Aziz_Al_Saud)
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how comes noones mentioned Gaddafi? surely he'll be missed!
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Sir JIMMY Savile just died two days before his 85th birthday!
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16099015 (http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16099015)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15507374 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15507374)
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Sir Jim was a strange man but i can't deney he raised a huge amount of money for charity so god bless him. he will be delighted to be re-united with 'the duchess' - his mother.
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as much good as he did, he always gave me the creeps. not a bad old age to reach though i guess.
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I'm so pleased i wasnt the only person creeped out by JS. No doubt his interview with Louis Theroux will be repeated this week. I suppose i can stop sending letters now asking for a date with enrique cos ive no hope of jim fixing anything now.
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jim never contacted me about my request to meet the Ghostbusters either.
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goodbye joe frazier.
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goodbye joe frazier.
A legend.
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Heavy D!
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just heard about him... that's no age.
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At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we will remember them.
For all those killed by war, and for those who loved them.
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(http://www.bbc.co.uk/humber/content/images/2005/07/18/poppies_470x354.jpg)
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Lovely picture
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oh, forgot to mention the red arrows pilot too.
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Goodbyee end (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DGa9xHGB0c#)
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when comedy and drama collide... perfectly.
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Gary Speed - a terrible loss to football, to sportsmanship and to his family.
God bless him.
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and there goes ken russell. no, i was never a fan. in fact i'm dreading the televising of his movies now this has happened. but even so - RIP.
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Yes quite, Ken Russell
maverick extraordinaire
RIP - but where?
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goodbye colonel potter from M*A*S*H. 96... not a bad innings.
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I got moved by the vid. :'( Rest in peace for those who sacrifice their life for those who got killed by wars.
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BILLIE JO SPEARS TRIBUTE - 1937-2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N24tgncjKW0#)
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Christohpher Hitchens. A great thinker and giant of his generation.
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N Korean leader Kim Jong-il [email protected]@ No broken eggs there!
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wonder if they'll show Team America as a tribute?
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bob anderson, the bloke who stood in for sword fighting stunts in major movies, has now gone aged 89... he did all darth vader's stuff. how sad that we're all familiar with his work and used to seeing him onscreen but would never recognise him for being him.
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GREAT LOSE to Bob Holnes
Blockbusters - the First Hand Jive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z_uqL8opW8#)
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oh no, not bob! how sad. :-(
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Whitney Houston is now dead, such a shame at 47. lets all thank bobby brown for getting her in to drugs.
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Well, we don't know that drugs played a part in her death yet, do we? Sadly, plenty of people die of natural causes in their forties.
I was just thinking of the concept of 'rest in peace' when it comes to Whitney. I reckon there's no chance of anyone in heaven resting peacefully for a while with her belting out 'AND I-E-I-E-I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU-OU-OU-OU-OUWILLALWAYS LOVE YOU....'
Still, even though I didn't like her much, she will be a huge loss to many.
RIP
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Whitney Houston - How Will I Know (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-hY-hlhBg#)
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wasn't a fan, but still sad all the same. another celebrity who declined into the darker side of fame, which is always sad. i just hope they don't put that awful Bodyguard song back in the charts now this has happened. still recovering from last time. (and that was 20 years ago!)
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Irish actor David Kelly dies aged 82
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17020494 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17020494)
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oh no! not o'reilly! rip.
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Ray Honeyford http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16968930 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16968930)
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did anyone see this yet? VERY bad observation skills by the goons at channel 5 here... but omg, i must confess it was very funny, in a very dark, guilty kinda way.
Whitney Wonga (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoNbR6kj9e8#ws)
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Frank Carson dies... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17046201 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17046201)
Frank Carson: The only Irishman who can say Llanfairpwllgwyngyll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmM6bg4xZWo#noexternalembed-ws)
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Oh my God. Davie Jones has died. I was never a great Monkees fan but oh boy! he had such a dear, sweet, face. My husband had the record I'm a Believer at our wedding reception so i do have a big soft spot for them.
RIP Davie. xxxxx
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he was always my very favourite Monkee as a kid. this is so sad. and only 66 too. am i right in saying only 2 Monkee's remain now?
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goodbye robin gibb. thanks for the music. RIP.
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Yea, sad to see another icon shuffle off to the great choir in the sky.
I loved the Bee Gees' earlier recordings but didn't care for the high-pitched yodelling they produced in the last 30 years - and I'm definitely not a fan of disco music. However, Robin sang the lead on all those lovely early ballads and that fantastic first rock recording they did called World (about 1968 - and it really doesn't sound like the Bee Gees.
The Bee Gees- 'World' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=camfUWblWCA#)
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RIP Eduard Khil - may your meme live forever.
RIP Ray Bradbury - you made many an english lesson more interesting.
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RIP Fred Toggins...a lovely family butcher. dunno where i'll get the kidney and heart for my dog now.
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RIP Fred Toggins...a lovely family butcher. dunno where i'll get the kidney and heart for my dog now.
Perhaps Fred was an organ donor?
(Sorry folks, but couldn't resist that)
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Eric Sykes. Lovely old dear, died aged 89. RIP
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indeed - hellava fella. RIP.
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I stepped on a bug this morning. *sobs*
Sorry, bug...
RIP
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Jon Lord from Deep Purple, amazing talent. R.I.P. Jon
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Jon Lord from Deep Purple, amazing talent. R.I.P. Jon
Yes, indeed, a very talented songwriter and performer. RIP
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indeed. where would guitar rifs be without 'smoke on the water'?
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Sir Alastair Burnett has died.
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he was always one of my fave Spitting Image puppets.
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RIP all those people who were ruthlessly gunned down at the Batman premiere. they were movie geeks, sci-fi/fantasy nerds... MY PEOPLE! so sad. shame the gunman didn't have the balls to turn the gun on himself like these nutjobs usually do. maybe our friends in america will fry him in the chair instead.
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Yes, what a terrible thing to happen - and it's close to a year since that guy in Norway shot all those kids. What on earth is wrong with these people?
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Elvis Presley is dead!!! WTF!!!
Why, I ask you, why, why, why!!!
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Sad to hear that Geoffrey Hughes, who played Twiggy in the Royle Family and a number of other memorable Tv characters, has died. He was only 68.
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what does everyone think about the new Jimmy Savile revalations? i'm not saying i know one way or another, but i will say this guy gave me the creeps from an early age.
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He gave mee the creeps too. I'm not sure really. It would have been much better for these people to have spoken out when he was alive - to give him a chance to defend himself, to get it properly investigated and to get some real closure, I would have thought. But then maybe they didn't want to have to see him in court and so on.
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will have to give the show a watch.
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Phyllis Diller died on Monday age 95: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19326640 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19326640)
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isn't it awful about tony scott? one seriously talented guy. massive loss all round. rip.
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isn't it awful about tony scott? one seriously talented guy. massive loss all round. rip.
My husband is a London cab driver and he picked up Tony Scott one night. He asked my husband to take him to a good vegetarian restaurant - 'your choice' - he said. My husband obliged and was rewarded with a decent tip.
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Neil Armstrong http://news.sky.com/story/977119/astronaut-neil-armstrong-dies-aged-82 (http://news.sky.com/story/977119/astronaut-neil-armstrong-dies-aged-82) is on his way back to the stars.
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a true legend in every sense of the word. funny, i was only watching apollo footage on youtube last night.
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just saw that on the web, R.I.P. Neil. hoping for a nice tribute piece on Patrick's "The sky at night" prog. I'll be gutted when patrick moore goes; ive watched him for years.
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Neil was a good guy. RIP
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and now the guy who voiced The Count in Sesame Street has passed. what a legend! he taught me so much as a kid, and has taught my daughter the same things 30 years later.
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Max Bygraves has died in Australia aged 89. He was a lovely man. God Bless you Max. xx
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now michael clarke duncan - whose Green Mile performance will be remembered for a long, long time - has gone. what an extraordinary talent this guy was.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19520824 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19520824) Terry Nutkins has died:
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That guy was one of my heroes when I was younger. Seriously sad to see him go. RIP, mate!
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just heard. this is so sad.
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Andy Williams has died. Terrific voice, but didn't much care for his politics. However, for the pleasure he gave to millions, RIP Andy.
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And now Herbert Lom has died. I always thought he was rather handsome. Good age though - 95.
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It would have been much better for these people to have spoken out when he was alive - to give him a chance to defend himself.
Oh, I think Uncle Jimmy defence would have been in tatters by now. I always hated the bloke and now this. I'm glad my letter to Jim'll Fix It was thrown in the BBC bin...
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Yes, I think it's probably a well-established fact that Jimmy was a pervert of the worst kind and, it seems, people DID speak out and were ignored. Shame on those who covered this up!
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if you rummage back through the comments to when he died i said then he always gave me the creeps. this all came as no shock to me.
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I always had him down as an oddball (particularly the obsession with his dead mother) but I honestly didn't see this coming.
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on the other hand i was a MASSIVE Freddie Starr fan as a kid. if they prove any involvement from him i will be shocked and greatly saddened.
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And what about John Peel? I had a lot of respect for him but now I'm just shocked that he seems to have taken advantage of at least several under age girls.
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just what has been going on at the BBC for all these years?!
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I think we have to draw a line here. On one side are the 'groupies' and on the other are the victims of predatory paedo's/sex attackers. Back in the day there was a massive groupie culture, one that stretches beyond the BBC into the world of music and art. These girls/boys knew exactly what they were doing and what they wanted, and it would be unfair for these girls/boys to suddenly start pointing the finger at John Peel and Tony Blackburn. On the other hand, people like Savile, Jonathan King and Paul Gadd were nasty pieces of work who's lust for power spilled over into the exploitation of minors.
As for Freddie Starr, he's just bonkers and I don't believe for a second that he is part of the 'ring', as it were. He should have been honest from the start, though, about his kinship with Savile.
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...These girls/boys knew exactly what they were doing and what they wanted...
all i can say is WOW - did you REALLY just write that?
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Yes, I really did write that and I know it's a controversial thing to say, but some of these kids were groupies. It was the culture back then. To have intimate relations with a celebrity was seen as a victory (and still is, but not as much). But, and this is the BUT, some of these kids weren't groupies and just wanted an autograph or a momento, and that's where the problems started.
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wow. if you weren't such a blatant troll i might actually be offended and argue against your 'point'. but bless, you're trying your best to cause outrage so full marks for effort. unfortunately it's nothing original and we've all seen it all before. ;-)
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I think we have to draw a line here. On one side are the 'groupies' and on the other are the victims of predatory paedo's/sex attackers. Back in the day there was a massive groupie culture, one that stretches beyond the BBC into the world of music and art. These girls/boys knew exactly what they were doing and what they wanted, and it would be unfair for these girls/boys to suddenly start pointing the finger at John Peel and Tony Blackburn. On the other hand, people like Savile, Jonathan King and Paul Gadd were nasty pieces of work who's lust for power spilled over into the exploitation of minors.
As for Freddie Starr, he's just bonkers and I don't believe for a second that he is part of the 'ring', as it were. He should have been honest from the start, though, about his kinship with Savile.
A 13 year old 'groupie' cannot legally consent to sex (or sexual petting) and grown men should have known better how ever provocative the offer. The legal age is 16 for a reason. There is NO excuse for what these people did and saying 'it was like that back then' is no defence.
'Back then' school teachers used to beat children with sticks, children in care were habitually molested, child abuse of all sorts was carried out and it was largely hidden. If you were a victim, you felt 'dirty' and you were made to feel you were to blame 'for asking for it'. There is NEVER an excuse what ever the age of the victim/abuser and whatever the age in which it happens.
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Yes, I really did write that and I know it's a controversial thing to say, but some of these kids were groupies. It was the culture back then. To have intimate relations with a celebrity was seen as a victory (and still is, but not as much). But, and this is the BUT, some of these kids weren't groupies and just wanted an autograph or a momento, and that's where the problems started.
So you are blaming the so-called 'groupies' for the abuse of so-called 'non-groupies'? Are you for real? These were CHILDREN. The 'problem started' when these men (and I suppose there could have been women too) decided it was alright to molest, abuse and in some cases rape CHILDREN.
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WELL SAID!
however... when you asked 'are you for real' the answer is 'nope, probably not.' this moron is just another boring internet troll who thinks it's still 2006.
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I think we have to draw a line here. On one side are the 'groupies' and on the other are the victims of predatory paedo's/sex attackers. Back in the day there was a massive groupie culture, one that stretches beyond the BBC into the world of music and art. These girls/boys knew exactly what they were doing and what they wanted, and it would be unfair for these girls/boys to suddenly start pointing the finger at John Peel and Tony Blackburn. On the other hand, people like Savile, Jonathan King and Paul Gadd were nasty pieces of work who's lust for power spilled over into the exploitation of minors.
As for Freddie Starr, he's just bonkers and I don't believe for a second that he is part of the 'ring', as it were. He should have been honest from the start, though, about his kinship with Savile.
A 13 year old 'groupie' cannot legally consent to sex (or sexual petting) and grown men should have known better how ever provocative the offer. The legal age is 16 for a reason. There is NO excuse for what these people did and saying 'it was like that back then' is no defence.
Well, there are a lot of rock bands out there who should start getting worried. Motorhead didn't write the song Jailbait for nothing.
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How many times do I have to say it? I'm not a bloody troll! This is the stuff I believe. I understand that adults should know where to draw the line, but in the world of celebrity, that line gets skewed. I've read books about people who've said they were having sex with music stars when they were 14 and they don't regret it. Not all children are innocent, you know.
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I think we have to draw a line here. On one side are the 'groupies' and on the other are the victims of predatory paedo's/sex attackers. Back in the day there was a massive groupie culture, one that stretches beyond the BBC into the world of music and art. These girls/boys knew exactly what they were doing and what they wanted, and it would be unfair for these girls/boys to suddenly start pointing the finger at John Peel and Tony Blackburn. On the other hand, people like Savile, Jonathan King and Paul Gadd were nasty pieces of work who's lust for power spilled over into the exploitation of minors.
As for Freddie Starr, he's just bonkers and I don't believe for a second that he is part of the 'ring', as it were. He should have been honest from the start, though, about his kinship with Savile.
A 13 year old 'groupie' cannot legally consent to sex (or sexual petting) and grown men should have known better how ever provocative the offer. The legal age is 16 for a reason. There is NO excuse for what these people did and saying 'it was like that back then' is no defence.
Well, there are a lot of rock bands out there who should start getting worried. Motorhead didn't write the song Jailbait for nothing.
No doubt there ARE a lot of people out there about to get worried. So what if Motorhead wrote a song about sex with young girls. Does that make it right?
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How many times do I have to say it? I'm not a bloody troll! This is the stuff I believe. I understand that adults should know where to draw the line, but in the world of celebrity, that line gets skewed. I've read books about people who've said they were having sex with music stars when they were 14 and they don't regret it. Not all children are innocent, you know.
It makes no difference at all whether the people you quote regret having sex at 14 - in this country it was and is illegal and the rock stars concerned should have turned them down flat.
'Not all children are innocent you know' is a gross statement to make. What, are some of them guilty then? THEY are to blame when an adult consents to sex with them or molests them? It's attitudes like yours that made it possible for people like Saville to get away with what they did for decades - the children asked for it. YOU MAKE ME SICK.
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How many times do I have to say it? I'm not a bloody troll!
well if that's the case why don't you openly disclose your previous chocolate forum identity (or is that identities?) with us right now? go on. prove you're not a troll. i'm not asking for a real name or anything so what's the big deal?
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Um... not to defend or anything but...I and a number of my friends used to be groupies when we were younger. And I can attest that it is certainly possible for quite young girls to be incredibly lying, coercive and manipulative, and it is possible for older men to be terribly taken advantage of. Not that that always makes everything ok. All situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects.
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i know toddlers that are lying, coercive and manipulative. i guess it's okay to abuse them then?
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A 13 year old 'groupie' cannot legally consent to sex (or sexual petting) and grown men should have known better how ever provocative the offer. The legal age is 16 for a reason
Actually that is not true. Whilst the legal age is 16, the age at which a child can be mentally deemed to have consented to sex is 12.
That is why we have the offence of 'unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor', as opposed to the Yanks who have 'statutory rape' for any sex where one of the participants is underage. Under 12, the child is deemed not mentally old enough to grasp what sex is, and its rape pure and simple.
IMO ours is a far more sensible offence, as it confirms that the underage happily consented, whereas the US law deems it to be rape, even if it was consentual. There is still punishment, but not the prison term youd get for rape. It also allows the charges of rape or sexual abuse to be saved so to speak for where there has been actual rape and abuse.
For example, if a 16 year old boy has sex with a 14 year old girl, or a 17 year old boy and a 15 year old girl, then the law takes common sense and sexual consent into the equation. Rather than charge the boy with rape, he gets charged under a far more sensible offence.
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all i can say is WOW - did you REALLY just write that?
The poster is making a valid point.
It may not be one you like, but he has a point.
There are clear and obvious victims of men and women who sexually abuse and rape children and teenagers, but the poster was and is referring to teenagers (usually girls) who since the days of the Beatles, have happily slept with rock and pop stars, TV stars. Hence the word 'groupie'. And groupies have always been young, female, and around 14-21. Hence the word jailbait.
You are correct that the men should simply ignore these girls, as they are underage. Absolutely correct.
But you are being nieve if you think a teenager having sex with an older partner is automatically an abused or raped or coerced child. Common sense tells you that there is a difference between a little child being sexually abused, a teenager being abused and raped, and a teenager who is a willing partner in sexual intercourse with an older partner. The latter may still be wrong, but it isnt rape or abuse. And in fact it cheapens real abuse and rape to call it that.
You call the poster sick. I worry about the hysteria and lack of common sense I see in replies like yours.
With Savile and April Jones, it is not a good time to be living in Britain. Because we are quickly sliding back into the 'peado panic' of 10-12 years ago. And thats not healthy.
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can anyone say... 'alter egos'? SNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE! i do love it when a troll has to back itself up because no real person with a functioning brain will.
however, it does worry me that the person behind these screen names knows an awful lot about red-tape regarding paedophile laws. hmm.
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Eh?.
I am not the alterego of the other poster, I have been a member of this site for several years!. 17th Dec 2006 to be exact. Check my post history. Which will show that this is the first time I have ever posted on a non-chocolate related thread. And I joined it only to correct the poster who got the age of consent laws slightly wrong. In fact, I come to ChocReview for the news, I as you can see very rarely ever post at all.
Frankly, I wish I hadnt bothered now, as you are downright insulting. Are you always this rude and ill-mannered to people on here?. Frankly, you should apologise to someone who is a long term member of this site, but I wont hold my breath.
As to your silly comment re 'peadophile laws', I know the law because I am an intelligent, well-read person. Sorry for that. Just because you are ignorant dosent mean the rest of us are. By that bizarre 'logic', because I know a lot about the Nazis, I must be one.
Or because I know roughly the average sentence for rape and murder, I must secretly want to do those crimes.
BTW, most people in the country have heard of the charge of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor. As most people have heard of most charges in this country. We've all heard of GBH, dosent mean most of us want to go around smashing people's faces in, does it?. If they didnt know of the 'unlawful' charge, they certainly did when ex-England and Arsenal footballer Graham Rix was rightly jailed for it a few years ago. As it was all over the news.
So does that mean the majority of the country who have heard of that particular sex charge are paedos?.
I tried to make an intelligent, measured and thoughtful post, trying to add something to the thread. I clearly wasted my time, with pitchfork-waving hysterics like you about.
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all i can say is WOW - did you REALLY just write that?
The poster is making a valid point.
It may not be one you like, but he has a point.
There are clear and obvious victims of men and women who sexually abuse and rape children and teenagers, but the poster was and is referring to teenagers (usually girls) who since the days of the Beatles, have happily slept with rock and pop stars, TV stars. Hence the word 'groupie'. And groupies have always been young, female, and around 14-21. Hence the word jailbait.
You are correct that the men should simply ignore these girls, as they are underage. Absolutely correct.
But you are being nieve if you think a teenager having sex with an older partner is automatically an abused or raped or coerced child. Common sense tells you that there is a difference between a little child being sexually abused, a teenager being abused and raped, and a teenager who is a willing partner in sexual intercourse with an older partner. The latter may still be wrong, but it isnt rape or abuse. And in fact it cheapens real abuse and rape to call it that.
You call the poster sick. I worry about the hysteria and lack of common sense I see in replies like yours.
With Savile and April Jones, it is not a good time to be living in Britain. Because we are quickly sliding back into the 'peado panic' of 10-12 years ago. And thats not healthy.
Thanks for your comments. I want to make a numkber of points:
Firstly, I have been a member of a jury where an older man was standing trial for the rape of a 13 yrear old girl, with an alternative charge of 'unlawful sexual intercourse'. I therefore received excellent instructions and guidance from a high court judge regarding the legalities of the situation. One of the things he emphasised was that we should consider whether there was 'no consent' given or 'reckless regard as to whether consent was given'. The 'Reckless regard' consideration meant that the accused had to be certain the girl was consenting fully and that she was not somewhat uncertain or UNABLE To GIVE CONSENT because of her age and vulnerability.
Secondly, my job requires me to have child protection training and to update that training every three years. The training now includes 'vulnerable adults' awareness, where a person may be over the age of consent but 'vulnerable' for a variety of reasons.
Therefore, I think I am qualified to comment on these matters.
I agree with you that the law should recognise that young people will enter into consensual sexual behaviour when they are aged under 16 and that sometimes they may be in a relationship and no useful purpose is served by punishing them for that behaviour.
I also recognise and acknowledge that young people will give consent to sexual behaviour with a much older adult and that this is different from the adult molesting a young person with disregard to consent. HOWEVER, an adult is an adult and a person under 16 is a child. In the cases we have been discussing, that of 'groupies', where very young girls (and I suppose boys) have consented to sex with much older adults and sex or sexual behaviour has taken place, that adult, in my opinion, has had 'reckless regard to consent' and should have declined any sexual contact at all with the young person or people. And before someone jumps in with the point that 'she looked 16/17/18 and told me she was 16/17/18 - I didn't realise she was 14/15 - the law states that this is no defence.
Additionally, getting back to Jimmy Savile, his alleged offending dates back to that late 50s, with most of it being carried out in the 60s/70s. Savile was, at this time, over 40 years of age. Does anyone think a man of this age should be slobbering over teenage girls, even if they threw themselves naked at his feet? Does anyone think it is normal for men in their 20s/30s/40s or older to enjoy sex with teenagers?
Finally, yes, I did refer to 'gimme-what-ever-his-name' as making me sick (I didn't call 'him' sick, I said he made ME sick). This is because he tried to suggest that groupies offering themselves to rock stars etc, resulted in rock stars molesting young people who did not consent. He wrote "BUT, some of these kids weren't groupies and just wanted an autograph or a momento, and that's where the problems started." Now, to ME that means he thinks that adults are not responsible for their own behaviour, that they can be influenced by the sexual advances of 'non innocents' resulting in the molestation of 'innocents'.
That is dangerous thinking.
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What about a hypothetical 'We Need to talk about Kevin' scenario? Unrelated to the Saville thing, would it not theoretically be possible for a teenage girl to be a homicidal sociopath and an older man to be completely innocent? Arguably more likely to happen the other way round, but not impossible. And I have known at least one girl (not myself) who on a number of occasions got boys drunk/on drugs and took advantage of them to the fullest extent. And both her and the boys were underage at the time, so the question of age was irrelevant. I remember how sorry me and my friends felt for the guys, having to perform such an act with the girl in question (seriously, she wasn't much to look at and her personality did nothing to redeem her).
I am not condoning anything, nor excusing anything. As I said, all situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects. Snap judgments must not be made on quick and immediate stereotypes alone.
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What about a hypothetical 'We Need to talk about Kevin' scenario? Unrelated to the Saville thing, would it not theoretically be possible for a teenage girl to be a homicidal sociopath and an older man to be completely innocent? Arguably more likely to happen the other way round, but not impossible. And I have known at least one girl (not myself) who on a number of occasions got boys drunk/on drugs and took advantage of them to the fullest extent. And both her and the boys were underage at the time, so the question of age was irrelevant. I remember how sorry me and my friends felt for the guys, having to perform such an act with the girl in question (seriously, she wasn't much to look at and her personality did nothing to redeem her).
I am not condoning anything, nor excusing anything. As I said, all situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects. Snap judgments must not be made on quick and immediate stereotypes alone.
OK, what about this hypothetical situation.
It's 1976 and a 14 year old girl goes to see her pop idols in concert with a group of friends. With a bit of flirting, she persuades a doorman to get her and a mate backstage after the show to meet their idols. They can't beleive their luck when they are invited back to the idols' hotel.
Back at the hotel, the 14 year old 'gets off' (as they used to say) with her idol. They kiss and cuddle and she believes she's falling completely in love. She consents to sex and they 'make love' (in her words). Afterwards, her idol tells her 'wait there love, i won't be long' He returns with the doorman who got them a back stage pass. The doorman strips off. 'What's going on?' asks the girl. 'Come on love' her idol says 'you've got to be nice to the man who allowed us to meet'. The girl is horrified 'no way!' cries. 'Please darling, be nice to him for me.' and he leaves the gril alone with the doorman who gets his way. Later, her idol returns and 'makes love' to her again. He then reunites her with her friend who has had sex with another member of the band and a roadie under similar circumstances.
The girls are taken home by taxi. They are quiet. They are both upset. Weeks later, they talk to each other about their horrible experience and vow to keep quiet. They feel dirty and ashamed.
In another town, the process is repeated with a dozen more girls. The 'idols' laugh together about all 'candy' they are getting. One of the roadies, a slightly older man, expresses concern. 'You want to be careful lads. You're going to get yourselves into trouble. Some of these girls are just little kids'
'Give over mate!' says one of the idols. 'They're gagging for it!'
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Oldspice:
Thank you for your reply. It was polite and intelligent, unlike the childish vitriol I had to suffer last night from another poster.
To give you my background, I spent three years working for the CICA in Glasgow. A job which involved dealing with the victims of rape and sexual abuse. Mostly female, some adult and some teenagers and even children. Conversely, I dealt with boys and men who had been the victims of false rape and abuse claims. 'Thankfully', most of my caseload was robbery, assault, burglary, unpleasant crimes, but the rape and abuse (or false claims) were the worst and most depressing. I had to meet the people as well as wade through all the police and court and social service evidence, not a nice job at times. So I have dealt with the real victims of rape and abuse and the horrible effects of it, but also I have seen how women, teenage girls and even children can lie and ruin a man's or a boy's life. So perhaps thats why I maintain a central position on issues like this.
Does anyone think a man of this age should be slobbering over teenage girls, even if they threw themselves naked at his feet? Does anyone think it is normal for men in their 20s/30s/40s or older to enjoy sex with teenagers?
No. As a red blooded male, I can understand why he would be attracted to lovely young ladies, but as an older man, he should walk away. Its called self-control.
I used to know a 40 year old who actively chased 16/17 year olds (as a handsome man, he was actually quite successful). But myself and others who worked with him, mostly men, thought he was sad and out of order.
As to is it normal, men will always look at beautiful young girls. Its nature. But thats where it should stop. Look, fantasise in your head, but leave young girls for young men. Being crude, older men should go home and have a w*nk and leave the girls to enjoy being teenagers and falling in love and lust with boys their own age.
I am 42. If I see a gorgeous young girl, I look. I cant help it, as a hetero male, I will look at any attractive girl or woman. BUT I would never, ever even think of actually trying to chat them up, let alone bed them. BECAUSE I am 42. And they are not. They are 16 or 17 or 18. To me, they are like a pretty flower: you look at it and then you walk on. You dont walk into the garden and tear up the roses and steal them.
(at this point, you will grasp that I am not good with metaphors.....lol)
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Hi ayrshirechocman,
Thanks for explaining your position. It helps us to see there are different types of victims in these cases.
In a post earlier today, I described a scenario in which a very young girl consents to sex, and then gets carried into a situation that she certainly did not invite, but it occurred because the men involved decided that if she was 'up for it' with one man (a man she believed she loved) she must therefore be 'up for it' for all. When she showed obvious hesitation and horror, the men just went ahead anyway, believing that because she has consented to sex with one man at such a young age, she is therefore 'game'. It shows how young people can get involved way above their heads because they do not have the capacity to think things through. They are trusting and willing and vulnerable because of their age.
Yes, lives certainly can be ruined by false allegations and as a teacher, I am all too aware of this.
Don't be too hard on WJP. His outburst was out of character and I happen to know that he has a much treasured small daughter and that makes him very protective.
Thanks again for your contribution.
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you said it all, Spicy - bravo! so i shall leave you to deal with these 'people' ;-) with your ultimate weapon of common sense. i for one am a little bored at having to state the bleedin' obvious that - celebrity or average joe, consenting or not, groupie or school-kid, 60's or 00's - SCREWING KIDS IS MORALLY WRONG AND, AHEM, ILLEGAL! it's really that simple. it's red-tape seeking people trying to find exceptions to this simple logic who make a farce out of the law and society in general. i'm not willing to state at this time why my pitchfork is so firmly in my hand on this subject, but i will say that there have been some comments in this thread that have left me feeling a little sick, but i guess they were meant to. what can i say, i'm a black/white kinda guy, not really into the shades of grey mentality. simple rules for simple times, not complicated technicalities with streets full of marauding perverts. anyways, peace, love, empathy - triple-6 out.
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All that I ask is that the issue not descend into misandry or blatant stereotyping. The boys were I mentioned earlier were completely unwilling and, were the genders reversed, this would be deemed rape. Similarly, just because a person is a female or young (13-14) and thus 'innocent' 'pretty flowers', they view sex as 'making love' or whatever. There is no reason why 13-14 year old girls cannot view 'band members', 'roadies' or any other person, male or female, as merely notches on a bedpost to make their way through and then brag and compare notes with their mates about it afterwards. Some pretty flowers may wish to be torn up. To extend the metaphor, roses have thorns and foxgloves are deadly poison. What is it Lady Macbeth said? 'Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under't'? As ayrshirechocman says, a central position should be maintained and each situation and person dealt with in its/their own terms, without allowing age, race, gender or any other stereotypes to influence.
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streets full of marauding perverts.
Good grief.
And you wonder why the govt was reticient to give the public access to information on sex offenders for fear of the pitchfork brigade.
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All that I ask is that the issue not descend into misandry or blatant stereotyping. The boys were I mentioned earlier were completely unwilling and, were the genders reversed, this would be deemed rape. Similarly, just because a person is a female or young (13-14) and thus 'innocent' 'pretty flowers', they view sex as 'making love' or whatever. There is no reason why 13-14 year old girls cannot view 'band members', 'roadies' or any other person, male or female, as merely notches on a bedpost to make their way through and then brag and compare notes with their mates about it afterwards. Some pretty flowers may wish to be torn up. To extend the metaphor, roses have thorns and foxgloves are deadly poison. What is it Lady Macbeth said? 'Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under't'? As ayrshirechocman says, a central position should be maintained and each situation and person dealt with in its/their own terms, without allowing age, race, gender or any other stereotypes to influence.
I can see the point you are making, but I still maintain that, even if these 13-14 year old girls are viewing band members as 'notches on the bed post' they are still worthy of protection from risky sexual activity with much older men/women. With reference to the girl who, when still under age, got boys drunk/drugged up and took sexual advantage of them, this girl was also worthy of protection from her risky, dangerous and abusive beahviour and the boys in question were worthy of protection from her. Such behaviour often stems from low self esteem and inadequat parenting.
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Then I applaud your attitude. Your students must be very lucky to have one so sympathetic as their mentor. The teachers and adults I have come across have never viewed such behaviour as representative of one being 'worthy of protection', but rather either a hysterical attention seeker or simply an foolish little girl or idiot guttersnipe; and ultimately something to be brushed aside as completely irrelevant, as it has no relation to one's ability to complete fifty gazillion quadratic equations in ten minutes, conjugate Latin verbs or debate the finer points of the Stalinist revolution. As I said, I truly admire and respect your sympathetic attitude to students and young people.
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Thanks Scarlet, that's very nice of you.
Teaching is very different these days. I actually teach in a Further Education college and most of my students are 16-19. I have also been involved in teacher training.
Many of my students come to college having 'failed' at school. Most of them are bright, intelligent young people who have a great deal of potential but often their lives have been blighted by their earlier experiences. They have low self-esteem and, because they have not achieved very much at school, they believe they are 'thick' and not worth very much. They have poor social skills, short attention spans and can often hardly read or write.
You cannot even begin to teach them anything until you have built up a relationship. You have to break down the barriers, gain their trust and then you can start to work with them. The most important thing is to respect them and their culture, however it might conflict with your own values. I must never judge my students or their backgrounds, but I have to try to understand them. A girl or boy who has spent a great deal of their childhood throwing a quilt over their drink-sodden, vomit-covered mother or father on the kitchen floor might seek comfort in an inappropriate relationship because it provides even a tiny amount of relief from their normal circumstances. They might move from sexual partner to sexual partner from an early age because they get a small amount of attention for a small amount of time and they think so little of themselves that their reputation and persoanl safety hardly even matter. They live for the moment.
That is why I firmly believe that these sexually active and promiscuous young people are worthy of protection.
Often, but not always, they are damaged from an early age and we should all be looking out for them.
Thanks again.
Julie
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How many times do I have to say it? I'm not a bloody troll!
well if that's the case why don't you openly disclose your previous chocolate forum identity (or is that identities?) with us right now? go on. prove you're not a troll. i'm not asking for a real name or anything so what's the big deal?
OK, if that's what it takes. My old forum name was netbuddy and, if I remember, controversial stuff was a bit of a no-no even back when I joined. I'm glad I've started a real full bloodied conversation, though ;D
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What about a hypothetical 'We Need to talk about Kevin' scenario? Unrelated to the Saville thing, would it not theoretically be possible for a teenage girl to be a homicidal sociopath and an older man to be completely innocent? Arguably more likely to happen the other way round, but not impossible. And I have known at least one girl (not myself) who on a number of occasions got boys drunk/on drugs and took advantage of them to the fullest extent. And both her and the boys were underage at the time, so the question of age was irrelevant. I remember how sorry me and my friends felt for the guys, having to perform such an act with the girl in question (seriously, she wasn't much to look at and her personality did nothing to redeem her).
I am not condoning anything, nor excusing anything. As I said, all situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects. Snap judgments must not be made on quick and immediate stereotypes alone.
OK, what about this hypothetical situation.
It's 1976 and a 14 year old girl goes to see her pop idols in concert with a group of friends. With a bit of flirting, she persuades a doorman to get her and a mate backstage after the show to meet their idols. They can't beleive their luck when they are invited back to the idols' hotel.
Back at the hotel, the 14 year old 'gets off' (as they used to say) with her idol. They kiss and cuddle and she believes she's falling completely in love. She consents to sex and they 'make love' (in her words). Afterwards, her idol tells her 'wait there love, i won't be long' He returns with the doorman who got them a back stage pass. The doorman strips off. 'What's going on?' asks the girl. 'Come on love' her idol says 'you've got to be nice to the man who allowed us to meet'. The girl is horrified 'no way!' cries. 'Please darling, be nice to him for me.' and he leaves the gril alone with the doorman who gets his way. Later, her idol returns and 'makes love' to her again. He then reunites her with her friend who has had sex with another member of the band and a roadie under similar circumstances.
The girls are taken home by taxi. They are quiet. They are both upset. Weeks later, they talk to each other about their horrible experience and vow to keep quiet. They feel dirty and ashamed.
In another town, the process is repeated with a dozen more girls. The 'idols' laugh together about all 'candy' they are getting. One of the roadies, a slightly older man, expresses concern. 'You want to be careful lads. You're going to get yourselves into trouble. Some of these girls are just little kids'
'Give over mate!' says one of the idols. 'They're gagging for it!'
Seriously, though, this hypothetical situation is a bit of an extreme one. Most groupies would get it on with their idol and go home with a smile! The idol portrayed here is a bit of a powermonger like Savile.
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What about a hypothetical 'We Need to talk about Kevin' scenario? Unrelated to the Saville thing, would it not theoretically be possible for a teenage girl to be a homicidal sociopath and an older man to be completely innocent? Arguably more likely to happen the other way round, but not impossible. And I have known at least one girl (not myself) who on a number of occasions got boys drunk/on drugs and took advantage of them to the fullest extent. And both her and the boys were underage at the time, so the question of age was irrelevant. I remember how sorry me and my friends felt for the guys, having to perform such an act with the girl in question (seriously, she wasn't much to look at and her personality did nothing to redeem her).
I am not condoning anything, nor excusing anything. As I said, all situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects. Snap judgments must not be made on quick and immediate stereotypes alone.
OK, what about this hypothetical situation.
It's 1976 and a 14 year old girl goes to see her pop idols in concert with a group of friends. With a bit of flirting, she persuades a doorman to get her and a mate backstage after the show to meet their idols. They can't beleive their luck when they are invited back to the idols' hotel.
Back at the hotel, the 14 year old 'gets off' (as they used to say) with her idol. They kiss and cuddle and she believes she's falling completely in love. She consents to sex and they 'make love' (in her words). Afterwards, her idol tells her 'wait there love, i won't be long' He returns with the doorman who got them a back stage pass. The doorman strips off. 'What's going on?' asks the girl. 'Come on love' her idol says 'you've got to be nice to the man who allowed us to meet'. The girl is horrified 'no way!' cries. 'Please darling, be nice to him for me.' and he leaves the gril alone with the doorman who gets his way. Later, her idol returns and 'makes love' to her again. He then reunites her with her friend who has had sex with another member of the band and a roadie under similar circumstances.
The girls are taken home by taxi. They are quiet. They are both upset. Weeks later, they talk to each other about their horrible experience and vow to keep quiet. They feel dirty and ashamed.
In another town, the process is repeated with a dozen more girls. The 'idols' laugh together about all 'candy' they are getting. One of the roadies, a slightly older man, expresses concern. 'You want to be careful lads. You're going to get yourselves into trouble. Some of these girls are just little kids'
'Give over mate!' says one of the idols. 'They're gagging for it!'
Seriously, though, this hypothetical situation is a bit of an extreme one. Most groupies would get it on with their idol and go home with a smile! The idol portrayed here is a bit of a powermonger like Savile.
I am assuming you don't have any daughters?
If you do have, your words might come back to haunt you if she/they ever walk through the door aged 14 with a big smile on her/their face/faces.
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I am assuming you don't have any daughters?
If you do have, your words might come back to haunt you if she/they ever walk through the door aged 14 with a big smile on her/their face/faces.
Would most parents care that much? Aside from the fact that the reasons for something as generic as a big smile can be myriad, my mother never seems to be that bothered what I do in that regard, as long as I never do anything to hurt or harm others and I maintain certain rigorous social and academic standards.
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I can completely understand how nerves are being jabbed with this whole discussion. No, I don't have any children, but I really don't see what that has to do with the situation. Does no kids equal no voice? I'm sure if I had children I would worry about them every hour of the day, as most, but not all, parents do.
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This is obviously a very emotive issue and it's easy for discussions like this to get out of hand. From what I know of the regular posters here no one would mean to imply that another poster would engage in any such behaviour.
I think responsibility is a key point here. Yes, there is a difference between a scared 9 year-old being forced by an adult and a 13 or 14 year-old aware of their own sexuality doing the running; however, just because something is on a plate you don't have to eat. I had a friend at school who at 13 was already very promiscuous, probably due in new small amount to a lack of live from her parents who used her as a weapon in their messy divorce. She absolutely believed she knew what she was doing when she chased these men - until she ended up having to go to the doctor with our form tutor for a pregnancy test. She very quickly became a scared little girl again after that. She could certainly have passed for 16, but I have to wonder how many questions the men involved were asking.
Of course it's not just girls. I was once contacted by a young man on a social networking site who'd found we through a group and wanted to be 'friends'. His profile said he was 18 - it was only once he'd told me in fairly graphic detail what he wanted from our friendship that he admitted he was only 16 but 'liked older men'. He was clearly the one doing the chasing here, but I had a choice, and I felt a 16 year-old might regret this kind of behaviour later on; plus if he'd already lied once, how was I to know he wouldn't have said 'well actually I'm not quite 16 yet...' once it was too late to stop me breaking the law? I owed it to myself to be careful and to him not to take advantage, even if as far as I knew it was all legal.
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A great post Smurfy. Many thanks.
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From the department of 'I thought they died in the 80's', RIP Clive Dunn.
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Good grief, I really did think he'd gone a long time ago!
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I thought EVERYONE in Dad's Army went a long time ago. He reached the grand old age of 92.
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He was a lovely man. RIP Clive, and thanks for all the laughter!
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I take it most of the cast of Dad's Army are gone now, apart from a few. What a legend. RIP
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Goodnight Jack Duckworth. :-(
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Goodnight Jack Duckworth. :-(
Yea, so sad. Haven't heard or seen a single bad word sad about Bill. He was a national treasure for sure.
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RIP JR Ewing. And just when Dallas was back on our screens, too. :-(
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RIP Dinah Sheridan . 92 years old and I loved her in the railway children.
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Didn't like The Railway Children. Jenny Agutter didn't strip off in that one!
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RIP Sir Patrick Moore, aka. Gamesmaster, an absolute legend now among the stars.
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Yes, a definite legend! RIP!
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just saw that on the web, R.I.P. Neil. hoping for a nice tribute piece on Patrick's "The sky at night" prog. I'll be gutted when patrick moore goes; ive watched him for years.
As per my quote back in august; Gutted. I'll miss his eccentricity on The Sky at Night (which i really hope continues running.)
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RIP the 26 who were recently taken from this planet with such evil. I hope there is a special place in Hell for the psychopath who did this unspeakable act.
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Well, I don't believe in Hell or Heaven; I just think they're metaphors that make people feel better. We're all placed on this Earth to help the Universe experience itself through us and go forward. Unfortunately, there is darkness and light, and sometimes the darkness makes itself present in the evilest of ways.
We are all at the mercy of our families and society, and, for some, this can be a bad time. No one just kills their own mother and then drives off to shoot 26 innocent people. He was moulded into that monster by his experiences growing up, which is sad in itself. I'm sure his past will be revealed in time and I expect it'll feature horror films, violent games and all the other crap the sensationalist press like to use to sell papers to their flock. But, when he was born, he was an innocent vessel and was corrupted from the outside in by his experiences growing up.
What he did was evil beyond imagination, but he was human like the rest of us. Society is the problem.
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I agree that when this young man was born, he was without sin. I am not sure whether he grew up watching horror movies or playing violent games but what does seem to have been relevant was his mother's obsession that there was going to be economic meltdown and that some kind of social breakdown would happen. She was stocking up on a massive scale and had guns and ammo all over the house.
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Nature vs nurture... that old chestnut. Truth is we'll probably never know what caused this. It's just so sad that one individual couldn't just turn the gun on himself without having to slaughter so many innocent children first.
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Monsters are created, not born that way.
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Legends always seem to go in threes around Xmas time. So it's RIP Jack Klugman (aka. Quincy) and Gerry Anderson. Dread to think who the 3rd one will be.
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at least two other people have died in the last two days:
* Mike Scaccia, Ministry guitarist, dies at 47. Scaccia came to attention with his first band Rigor Mortis in the 1980s Mike Scaccia, guitarist with heavy metal bands Ministry and Rigor Mortis, has died at the age of 47.
* Charles Durning, Star Of Tootsie, Dies Aged 89
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Fond memories of Thunderbirds. :)
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* Mike Scaccia, Ministry guitarist, dies at 47.
And not too long after losing Paul Raven :( R.I.P. Two Industrial legends
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And there's goes Winner. I'll remember him for making pensioners scary with Paul Kersey and his outburst on Littlejohn.
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Winner was a legend. We will never have British directors of his ilk ever again.
RIP!
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Someon on Tv siad last night that Winner was death to any actor's career. Any film they made with him was always their worst film (except for Bronson in Deathwish). However, Winner was a great personality, a self-made man, and a great friend to many - so RIP dear.
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Ah, but remember Bronsosn did those awful (but fun) Death Wish sequels (two of which were done by Winner) which practically killed his career stone dead.
And does anyone remember Dirty Weekend? Lol.
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Deathwish 1 - 3 are classics, as is Dirty Weekend, although I think they may all be cut on DVD. All for the wrong reasons, of course! Oh, and remember he gave us his version of The Wicked Lady, cruelly not available on DVD.
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:o
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Was it something I said?
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8)
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Well, you'd know more about that than me!
(http://www.cindycraig.net/images/Pink%20Purse%20Fight.jpg)
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Goodnight Richard Briers. :-(
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Yes, another legendary comedian and thesp gone. Also, Derek Batey of legendary Mr & Mrs fame has died as well!
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Oh no! One of my fave wrestling personalities has passed. RIP 'Paul Bearer'... oooohhhh yeeeeessss!
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A hugely sad farewell to Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuela, who did so much to liberate his people from poverty.
Also, goodbye Kenny Ball. I saw him live a couple of times in our local park at free concerts - and he was a magnificent performer and a very talented musician.
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Frank Thornton has died,
* http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21831678 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21831678)
* http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21828965 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21828965)
Are You Being Served? - Cold Comfort - "Then I Shall Have To Go Over Your Head" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXyVlSQDAIY#)
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Jeff hanneman from Slayer, while all around me were listening to Bros and the new kids you and the boys kept me sane in school. We lose Jeff, the hip hop community lose 1 of Kriss kross!!! Not a fair trade! Bring me the head of fiddy cent! :-P
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I couldn't believe it when it was revealed that Jeff had died. Slayer had a massive influence on me when I was a kid; those Jeff / Kerry solos used to have my jaw on the floor!
RIP Jeff! \m/
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Should be worth a giggle...
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RIP Ray Harryhausen. My heart is offically broken. The word 'legend' is thrown around so easily when someone dies these days, but in this case it more than stands up. Thanks for the childhood memories... which included me hiding behind my popcorn watching Medusa on the big screen. Here's hoping there are lots of skeletal warriors in heaven. :-(
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I was quite shocked when I saw another great had gone. I'm sure that the majority of posters on here owe him a great debt. I remember my dad taking me and my brother to see Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger and Clash of the Titans at the cinema back in the late 70's and early 80's. Plus, because my dad was a 'closet' fantasy fan, I got to see all the great sci-fi and monster films he helped make. I remember watching open mouthed at Earth vs Flying Saucers and the other Sinbad films.
A true great. RIP Ray Harryhausen...
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The guy was very old and all that, but it's still so sad that he's gone and stop-motion of that kind will most likely be buried along with him. I'd much rather watch one of his creations than CGI any day.
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I'd much rather watch one of his creations than CGI any day.
+1
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What p*sses me off more than anything is horror films which use CGI blood because it makes re-takes easier to set up. How lazy is that? Plus, you can ALWAYS tell and it completely ruins the atmosphere for me.
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I think it was Stanley Kubrick who said that a good special effect is one you don't notice. The minute you do notice, it pulls you out of the zone.
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Indeed - can't argue with The Kubrick!
Not that I'm dead against all types of CGI... I finally watched Prometheus last night and was blown away by the visuals. I just believe there is a time and place for everything, and CGI blood replacing blood squibs is just plain old offensive to me.
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Prometheus. Now you're talking. I thought it was great and the effects were seamless. Can't wait for Paradise.
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I enjoyed it so much it inspired me to immediately watch the Alien boxset I bought years ago but never watched. Going through all the films again (obviously I had seen them all before multiple times, hence the lack of urgency to watch the boxset), it became suddenly clear that, despite all I had read and knew about it and all that, I'd never actually seen the extended version of Alien 3 all the way through... just finished watching it, and I bloody loved it. Finally I have seen a worthy successor to Aliens. The only problem I have with the series now is Resurrection, which as much as I enjoyed as a popcorn flick, doesn't hond a candle to the toher 3.
And don't get me started on AVP!
Prometheus blew me away and I'm so happy the sequel is going forward. I'm kind of hit and miss with sci-fi but this one really did it for me.
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I've got the Alien box set, but I haven't got around to watching the Alien 3 DC. As an aside, I really like Alien: Resurrection. I always liked the idea of the xenomorphs and Ripley finally making it to Earth. As for AvP, well, I like the first one, but it doesn't have anything to do with the main series in my eyes.
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The extended/re-edit of Alien 3 is definitely worthy of your attention (it might've even been better if they managed to persuade Fincher to help out.) As for Alien 4... I watched that again last night, and like I said, as a popcorn flick it's fine... it just plays as a bit tacky compared to the other 3. I blame Joss Whedon's script (NEVER should've got him to write it) and the direction of a french guy who had little previous knowledge of the series. Oh, and Winona Ryder... who ruins everything she's in by default.
I disliked AVP... mainly due to the 12 rating on it. How the hell can you make a film with Aliens and Predators and rate it anything but 18? Having said that, Requiem got a harsher rating and sucked for other reasons. (Mainly by betraying certain aspects of the mythology of the two breeds.) I didn't really like the way the Aliens were protrayed as the Predators 'bitches'. That irritated me. It was after the first AVP film that the likes of Ridley Scott stated they would never have anything to do with either franchise ever again. Thankg goodness he reconsidered!
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Well, I always preferred the comics. I think Fox realised that AvP was never going to continue. At least we have Prometheus to cheer us up! :)
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As far as the Predator franchise goes... I genuinely preferred the last one - Predators - to all the others. Yes, I know, controversial.
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RIP the soldier murdered in cold blood by the cowardly islamic extremists yesterday in Woolwich. Feel disgusted to be human today.
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Somebody finally whacked Tony Soprano. RIP James Gandolfini. A great actor, though slightly typecast.
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Alan Whicker has gone now - pneumonia, aged 87. It sounds like he had a great life though - his long-term partner made a statement about how privileged she'd been to share so many years with him, and how much he'd enjoyed his work.
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Damn, I didn't even hear about this one. RIP. Good guy.
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Mel Smith.
Actor and comedian, dies of heart attack aged 60.
Silly, funny man. ~x~
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Pit of despair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z05StkAKKF0#)
Indeed. What a guy.
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Is it just me or are they dropping like flies at the moment.
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It does seem like it doesn't it?
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And yet Peter Andre still walks among us.
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And Piers Morgan >:(
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Indeed! What purpose does that bloke even serve?
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Dennis Farina now gone. (Google it!)
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Dennis Farina now gone. (Google it!)
No need, I loved him as Joe Fontana in Law and Order.
What a pity. Hopefully his energy is at peace now.
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Loved him in Snatch.
"London? Yes, London. You know, fish, chips, cup o tea, bad food, worse weather, Mary-f*****g-Poppins. LONDON!"
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Bloody hell, David Frost must have really hated that Keith Lemon revival of Through the Keyhole...
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Did anyone notice that Mike Winters died last week? I thought he'd died years ago but apparently, that was his brother.
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Whoooo?
David Jacobs has gone too. 87.
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Mike and Bernie Winters? A 1960s double act (brothers) - not very funny but very popular.
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Ah, Bernie Winters I know. And of course the legend that was Schnorbitz.
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I remember them, but I wasn't a huge fan of their brand of comedy.
Is it just me or does it seem like everyone from this era is either dying or being arrested on charges of meddling with children?
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As part of my class winning a competition, we got to have tea with Bernie CLIFTON backstage at one of his pantomimes in the 80's. I knew who he was, but all my little friends kept asking him where Schnorbitz was. He didn't stick around for long.
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Bernie Clifton? Was he the chap who won Opportunity Knocks in about 1976? If so, I saw him in concert in Great Yarmouth that year. He was a bit lame.
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Think ostrich...
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Oh, actually, I think it was Bernie Flint we saw in Yarmouth.
The ostrich wasn't much help - I obviously have no idea who Bernie Clifton is.
Isn't one of the Nolans called Bernie?
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Who's Bernie Flint?
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Isn't one of the Nolans called Bernie?
She died recently.
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Oh dear. How sad. Sorry.
Bernie Flint - singer - won Opportunity Knocks or something similar in the 1970s and had a No 1 hit. I think the song was called 'I don't want to put a hold on you'.
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Bernie by Anil Mistry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtsQPt54SBg#)
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Goodness. What is with these celebrities who feel compelled to have strange relationships with stuffed, brightly coloured animals?
I've never seen this chap. However, I wish him blessed heavenly sleep.
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No - he's not dead! It was Bernie Winters who started this whole 'Bernie' thing, lol. Clifton is still very much alive.
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Lol. Oh dear. It's all my fault. I'm such a silly old woman these days.
Let's start again. Tom Clancey, the writer, died last week. RIP.
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RIP Lou Reed. An awesome singer, songwriter and performer.
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PAUL WALKER..
I remember him from 'The Skulls', 'She's All That' and 'The Fast and The Furious', and many others.. He was a really good actor.
I read he was killed with one if his friends, when the Porsche they were travelling to a charity event in crashed into a lamp post.
Such an awful thing to happen.
I send Blessings and Peace to all who are left to mourn them both.
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Yeah, this one is quite a shocker... with lashings of awful irony. My fave film with him in was 'Into The Blue'... never was a Fast/Furious fan. What a dreadful waste.
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Haven't heard of him, but saw everything in the news. Much too young to die.
Also, Lewis Collins. Never a fan of The Professionals but he was a great actor in other stuff.
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Nelson Mandela...
If anyone ever deserved to rest in peace he does...
Blessings and Peace to all who mourn him, and to a world that seems less without him in it.
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Indeed. What a guy.
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Nelson Mandela...
If anyone ever deserved to rest in peace he does...
Blessings and Peace to all who mourn him, and to a world that seems less without him in it.
Absolutely. However, I'm totally sickened by hypocrites like David Cameron, who some years ago was calling for Mandela's hanging, and who is today attempting to gain popularity via insincere comments.
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Nelson Mandela...
If anyone ever deserved to rest in peace he does...
Blessings and Peace to all who mourn him, and to a world that seems less without him in it.
Absolutely. However, I'm totally sickened by hypocrites like David Cameron, who some years ago was calling for Mandela's hanging, and who is today attempting to gain popularity via insincere comments.
I really can't put into print my feelings about Mr Cameron in general, and this is probably not the place anyway...
But on the point you mentioned, I have to say I fully agree with you.
Both of his faces seem to be on full show right now, and I truly feel that Nelson Mandela deserved better than to have the UK government's official obituary given by him.
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Alas Peter oTool and Joan Fontaine both past away.
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I was really disappointed to see someone on my Facebook friend list ranting about how he'd seen more tributes to Paul Walker (who he described as 'second-rate') on FB than to Peter O'Toole. I'd never actually heard of Paul Walker before he died so can't say whether he was any good as an actor or not - but isn't it a) a bit pretentious to tell people which celebrity death matters more and b) a bit short-sighted not to realise that Walker's was the more shocking death? Of course Peter O'Toole was a great actor, but he was also 81 and had been through decades of health problems; hardly a man cut off in his prime.
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Paul Walker was an ok-ish actor... nothing special. The F&F films are abysmal in my eyes. Now I'm not one of these people to rant about which celebrity death is more shocking/important etc., but it did speak volumes about my facebook friends when EVERYONE seemed to know who Paul Walker was yet some were confusing Nelson Mandela with Morgan Freeman.
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I'd never heard of Paul Walker or seen any of his films but to die at such a young age is a tragedy. Peter O-Toole was a good actor but he was very lucky to live to 81 given the amount of abuse he gave his body. RIP both though.
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Mikhail Kalashnikov. Inventor of the AK47 assault rifle, has died aged 94.
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Hey, Doc. You back now you've regenerated?
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Hey, Doc. You back now you've regenerated?
Yes, and Clara Oswin and Amy Pond are my Assistants and they're lesbians. The first couple of years were the hardest!
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Never was a big fan of Fresh Prince, but still RIP Uncle Phil.
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Rest in peace Phil Everly. Wonderful, wonderful songs and harmonies that transport me back to those comfortable days of the 1960s with the radio always on in the background and mum baking and humming along.
The Everly Brothers - LET IT BE ME (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvA-STM7oJk#)
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Pete Seeger was one of the greatest influences on my life. RIP.
"We Shall Overcome": Remembering Folk Icon, Activist Pete Seeger in His Own Words & Songs (1 of 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW29HYTdiIs#ws)
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Ooo! bit of a shocker... Philip Seymour Hoffman. RIP! Great talent.
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Goodnight Shirley Temple. I'll never be able to drink grenadine without feeling sad again.
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Yea, she was a great kid and a more than useful adult. That's a rare combination in someone who was thrown into the limelight at such a young age.
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John Henson - son of the legendary Jim - passed away on Valentine's day. How sad. I am a huge Muppets fan and he will be missed. Only 48. :-(
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I love the Muppets too. 48 is far too young. How sad.
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As much as I love Ricky Gervais, I'm kinda hoping he doesn't ruin the new Muppet movie.
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RIP Egon Spengler. I guess no Ghostbusters 3 after all then.
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Bob Crow and Tony Benn. A sad week for socialism and socialists.
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Peaches. So, so sad. RIP
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RIP WWF/E legend The Ultimate Warrior. Loved this guy...
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Sue Townsend.
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Oh no! I couldn't imagine my childhood without Adrian Mole!
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:'(
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Still some life left yet, surely?
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Still some life left yet, surely?
Hmm apparently not.
Lets get this happy little thread rolling again, as a shunner of bookaface n twatter I refuse to believe social media (accepted stalking) is killing the forum.
ok...
R.I.P.
Dave 'Oderus urungus' Brockie from gwar - put the fun into metal music 23/3/14
Rik Mayall - Legend 9/6/14
Sam Kelly - seemed to appear in everything in the 80's 14/6/14
Patsy Byrne - Shut up Bernard 17/6/14
Tommy Ramone - And then there were none 11/7/14
King Robbo - The Graffiti war ends here 31/7/14
Mike Smith - Whered he go after the 80s? 1/8/14
Maria Kolokouri - Stunning Metal Bassist 10/8/14
Robin Williams - Nanu nanu 11/8/14
Richard Attenborough -Another Legend 24/8/14
Joan Rivers - Can we Talk, any day now/14
Cliff Richards career - Did he though??
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Can't believe ALL of the Ramones are dead. I am SO old!
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But on the plus side, all of Black Sabbath & Iron Maiden are still alive.
:'( Just seen that Glenn Cornick, Jethro Tulls original bassist has died though.
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Richard Kiel and Donald Sinden in the last few days, terrible shame.
The Reunion interview from Sunday is worth listening to - Richard doesn't sound very well on it, turns out he'd broken his leg recently and had surgery only the previous week.
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Donald sinden was definitely in the "thought they were already dead" category for me. I loved never the twain
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Sad to see these two talented gentlemen pass but hope they have gone to a much more peaceful world. Would have expressed sadness at Joan Rivers passing too but after her appalling remarks about Palestine and its people a few weeks before her death I will wish her peaceful rest and say no more.
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Mick Burt, drummer with Chas n Dave for 34 years.
"Go on Mick, give it some stick"
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Lynda Bellingham. RIP
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It was nice that Linda Bellingham chose to go on her terms rather than drag on her treatment.
R.I.P. Jack Bruce, bassist/vocalist from Cream, died today age 71 :-(
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Jack Bruce was so brilliant. Inspired and inspiring.
Also sad to hear Alvin Stardust died in the week. Obviously, I was not a huge fan during his time of fame, being much too much of a music snob to actually enjoy myself, but I was transported back to the early-mid 70s and exchanged some teen-angst-enrobed memories with two dear old school friends. RIP Alvin. xx